Baffling propane issues with Mr. heater

[kforrest]

Hello all.  Took a 3-night dry camping trip to Yosemite NP last week.  Used my Mr. Heater Big Buddy to keep us warm.  But I had issues with the propane.  I had a plumber friend install a pipe from my external LP bottle straight into the wall of the trailer, bypassing the regulator.  I then connect the Mr. Heater with a 12 foot LP hose from the wall connection directly to the heater.  The heater has it's own regulator. 

First, the heater is really hard to light when connected to the hose, for some reason.  I have to click and click the striker to get it to light. 
Secondly, when I finally get it lit, the heater will burn okay for a while, and then start acting funny.  It will flare up, and then go out.  Or the burner will flicker. 

So I decided to disconnect the hose, coil it up and use the spin-on 1lb. bottles instead.  I turned off the valve at the wall but left the heater on to purge the fuel in the hose before disconnecting.  Well, the heater continued to run and run.  Seems that it should have gone out when the propane in the hose was depleted, which I would expect to take not more than 1 or 2 minutes, max!  But it kept going!  I went to the wall, and tried to disconnect the hose from the valve, and there was all kinds of pressure there! 
I had to go out to the bottle and unscrew the hose, let the pressure release and reconnect.  But even then, there was pressure at the valve inside!  Finally, I opened the valve inside, and when I did so, more pressure was released thru the connection on the outside that goes to the bottle, which was still disconnected.  Then, I could disconnect the hose and all was well.  I was a bit worried about the possibility of carbon monoxide fumes in the trailer, especially since we were all going to bed.  And actually, the CO2 indicator did go off one time, when I was releasing the pressure, but I reset it and it did not come on again.  But as it turned out, the LP dissipated quickly, and all was well.  I did open a window and a couple ceiling vents, which I think helped.  But it was a bit worrisome. 

I then connected a spin-on bottle to the heater, and the next morning it lit right up with no problem and ran like a champ!  It runs great on the bottles but not with the hose.  Can anyone tell me what I did wrong and why it might not run properly with the hose?  I'm baffled!

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Fire your plumber friend and get somebody else to re-rig the LP pipe & hose. He messed something up, and you need to start over again at the tank.

 

[halfwright]

That sounds like the same symptoms I had when I had oil in the line from a tank. The pilot would flare and sputter.

But I can not explain the pressure it the lines. Sounds like what Gary said--bad plumbing.

 

[littledog]

If I read your post right your plumber hook up the line between the tank and the regulator or straight tank pressure. On a hot day tank pressure can reach  150 psi and up  in a 20lb tank. 1lb cylinders have a built in regulator bring it down so your heater  regulator can handle the lower pressure. Please talk to or take it to a professional. unregulated propane can be very dangerous. Matt     

 

[grashley]

It sounds like you got liquid propane into the line.  All the pressure came in the form of propane gas.  Listen to Gary.

 

[Tom Hoffman]

Have it plumbed by a Propane Bulk Sales Company, they will do it correctly,  You obviously had straight tank pressure (high) coming into you vehicle, never a good thing.  Your regulator needs to be outside so if it vents, it can blow away with the breeze.  You need a 2 stage regulator outside to get your operating pressure down to low pressure so the heater can operate correctly. 

Thank your lucky rabbits foot that you did not have an explosion inside.

 

[kjansen]

Mr Heater, as I understand it, is made to run on 1lb propane bottles which supposedly have a better or purer propane.  To run on bulk propane it is recommended to run the propane thru a filter 1st.  The filters can be bought everywhere.  They screw on the heater and the propane hose screws into them.  I wrecked 1 Mr Heater by not doing this.  After installing the filter on my 2nd heater, I have used bulk propane for years and have no problems.

The others are right tho, something is not plumbed correctly in your RV.  Be careful!

 

[John From Detroit]

THe problem may be Mr. Heater..... .I had a friend who has one.. He tried hooking it up via a hose to a luggable tank.. NO JOY..    Well I did find oil in the regulator so Mr. Heater sent a new one (I think it's 8 bucks)

Then I hooked up the hose and again.. No joy.. Turns out the "probe' part of the connection is a bit short,, Just a fraction short.. You need to screw the hose into the regulator VERY VERY VERY tight..

Finally I used pliars to tighten and it worked fine after that.

 

[catblaster]

Not trying to be sarcastic but I think the key words are "Plumber Friend". Like others have said you need a real plumber or gas installer to redo the piping.

 

[Elkhounds]

Yep without the regulator you risk possible explosion.  You are very lucky that you still have your RV.  Get someone that knows what they are doing to do it correctly.  Knowing how to plumb and knowing what all has to be plumbed are two totally different things.

 

[Tom Hoffman]

I use to drive a Propane Bobtail Truck making bulk deliveries.  One of my jobs was to make these kind of hook ups.

True Srory:

I went to a farmer's place to fill his portable 1000 gallon propane tank for his corn dryer,  corn dryers use liquid propane from the bottom of the tank (high pressure) straight to a vaporizer that helps the propane become gas just prior to ignition as the flame draw is so intense, that natural (top of tank) vapor gas is not fast enough. 

He had it all hooked up, dryer filled with corn just waiting for me to fill his tank so he could start drying corn.

I pulled my hose out to fill,  the temperature that day was in the high 70's (tank pressure was over 100 lbs PSI).  I just happened to look at his tank hook up to his dryer and some how he had managed to cobble up a connection useing plumbing parts and garden hose parts to get a garden water hose to the dryer and thought he was good to go. 

I told him I could not fill his tank with it that way and he called me every name in the book,  I called the office and they told me to leave and never go back.  Garden hoses are not meant to sustain 100+ lbs of pressure nor are the fittings.

Your small 20 or 30 pound cylinders can easily have 100 lbs of pressure in them on a warm day.

You are lucky your RV wasn't launched into orbit.... ;D ;D ;D

 

[kforrest]

When I said my "plumber friend" did the hookup, I was talking about a friend who was a plumber for 30-some years and has hooked up gas connections his whole life.  So he knows what he is doing!  But thanks for the input.  I will talk to the local LP gas company.

 

[Tom Hoffman]

Hooking up pipe is the provenance of plumbers. 

Dealing with tank pressures, proper hose and fittings, regulators and orifice sizes is where the gas companies come in. 

They also pressure test the installation to ensure no leaks.  Propane leaking indoors it never good. 

I wasn't disparaging your friend or his experience, I am reasonably certain his work did not leak, but both of you knew nothing about  the two stage regulator system needed to get tank pressure down to operating pressure.

I am sure your local LP Dealer will get you sorted.

 

[driftless shifter]

My BBQ works fine on tank pressure. I use an extend-a-stay type of fitting that allows an extra tank and a BBQ or anything else with its own regulator to be hooked up, my BBQ uses the same one pound bottles as a Mr. Heater. I suspect the plumber plumbed into the onboard supply after the regulator and there isn't enough pressure for the heater to work properly and acts like it's got a nearly empty bottle. the pressure build up when off is the residual pressure left in the remaining on board plumbing to the other gas appliances.

Bill

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Yep without the regulator you risk possible explosion.

He wasn't "without a regulator" - the My Buddy has its own built in. And they do work with extension hoses and big tanks - I ran one that way for 3-4 years, both in an RV and at home where use an auxiliary heater when a cold snap hits Florida. In fact, the heater will not work reliably if the feeder line is at at standard regular pressure (11 WC inches).

When I said my "plumber friend" did the hookup, I was talking about a friend who was a plumber for 30-some years and has hooked up gas connections his whole life. 

I apologize for disparaging your plumber friend, but something is screwy with that hook-up. You  turned off the valve but the heater didn't run out of gas? That alone is scary!  Either you turned the wrong valve, or he hooked up the line to the wrong place.  You & he need to go back to the Tee near the tank and start testing for pressure and function. I would temporarily hook up the Mr Buddy at that point and see if it works, and then move down the line until I found where the problem arises.

 

[Tom Hoffman]

I think we are in an Apples and Oranges situation,  your BBQ cannot operate at tank pressure of 100-200 PSI, it is manufactured to operate @ "LP gas appliance is 10" - 11" of water column (WC) or re-stating this in equivalent measures, that's 27.4 millibars or 2491 - 2739 Pascals or Pa, or about 0.36 - 0.40 psi or about 5.78 to 6.36 ounces of pressure per square inch."

See this info in detail http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Gas_Pressures.php#LPGPressure

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

your BBQ cannot operate at tank pressure of 100-200 PSI, it is manufactured to operate...

Just to be clear, some BBQ's operate with standard regulated gas pressure and require an external regulator, while other BBQs have an internal regulator and work of high pressure direct from the source tank.  BBQs that accept the small 1# bottles as direct input always have a built-in regulator and should not have another regulator external to the grill.

 

[Elkhounds]

He wasn't "without a regulator" - the My Buddy has its own built in. And they do work with extension hoses and big tanks - I ran one that way for 3-4 years, both in an RV and at home where use an auxiliary heater when a cold snap hits Florida. In fact, the heater will not work reliably if the feeder line is at at standard regular pressure (11 WC inches).

My apologies as well.  I read he bypassed the regulator and did not realize there was one built in.

I also meant no disrespect to your friend.  I see where it came across that way but did not mean for it to.  Playing with gas lines can be dangerous.  My cousin once ran a line from a 500 gallon tank right into his home furnace with out a regulator.  Gas company came out and really chewed him out for that.  Explained that with the pressure it was at he risked an explosion because the built in regulator on the furnace could not handle that pressure an could blow.

Hope you were or are able to get this working.

 

[Kevin Means]

kforrest...

Last spring, I ran a hose from the high pressure side of my RV's propane tank regulator to the opposite side of our MH, so I wouldn't have to use those disposable little bottles when BBQing. A few months ago, I had the exact same problem you described - the BBQ's regulator would ice up (you could see the frost) and I'd get some pretty big bursts of propane flashes inside the BBQ. While I don't know for sure, I think the inside of the regulator was icing up and disrupting the flow of propane, causing the flashes. It concerned me so much that I disconnected the hose and went back to using the the bottles.

I have since used the BBQ when it was attached to the hose and it has worked fine, with no signs of regulator-icing. I'm still on the same tank of propane so I don't think the problem was caused by excessive moisture in the tank, but I haven't determined why it was icing up then, but not now - moisture in the air???

I also have a catalytic propane heater that gets occasional indoor use, and it works great for warming up a single room. It was also designed to run off those disposable bottles but, like I did with the BBQ, I ran a high pressure line through the MH's floor so it could run off the RV's tank. I have not experienced the same "propane flashing" that I did with my BBQ, nor have I noticed its regulator icing up - but that doesn't mean it couldn't.

High pressure hookups for indoor-use catalytic heaters have been around for years. The thing that has changed in recent years is the greater availability of catalytic heaters that will run off low pressure propane - some can hook up to either. Even though the quick-disconnect fitting on our high pressure line has an internal auto-shut off valve, I'd much rather have a low pressure line inside the RV than a high pressure line, because I think it's safer. Making the swap is one of my future projects. Of course, that means I'll have to get a new catalytic heater, because mine only runs off high pressure propane.

I can just about guarantee that the reason your heater continues to run when you close the tank valve, is because it's running off the fuel that's in the line between the tank and the heater. It will continue to do so until you shut it off at the heater, or it consumes all the fuel in the line. If you shut off the heater before it's consumed all the fuel in the line, then unscrew the fitting at the tank, you'll get a burst of whatever pressure is left in the line. FWIW, if I close my propane tank's valve while my BBQ is on and set to "High," it will run for about four minutes on the fuel still left in the line.

Kev

 

[John From Detroit]

He :"Bypassed" the regulator for the RV. same as I did when I installed my Extend-a-stay

As I said. When I had to deal with that brand some years back I found it worked well with disposable bottles but when I tried to feed it with a hose it did not depress the valve in the hose and allow gas to pass.

I assume this was due to perhaps a MM of "Short" on the probe part of the coupling but it might have been the valve in the hose was a bit "Deep" (Oh heck, that would be a "Deep Throat" wouldn't it)

IN either case I had to use Pliars to very seriously tighten the hose to the regulator's inlet.. Then it worked fine.