Ford 150 Lightning EV

[Viajeros]

It's still early in this game, and the playing field isn't going to look like it now does for long.
I think that in the long run charging stations will be even more plentiful than petrol pumps are now, because charging stations don't have to deal with nearly as many environmental and zoning regulations as petrol pumps do, and don't have the overhanging cost of storage tank decommissioning. (It used to be that if a gas station closed they could just fill the tanks with sand, but I believe that in most places they now have to provide a means of funding the tanks' removal. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.)
Not only can existing petrol stations add and/or convert pump islands to charging stations, but any business with a parking lot has a potential new profit center just sitting there waiting to be implemented. That's not to say that every parking lot will have chargers. Location will remain important. But the simplicity of installation, low maintenance cost, and fewer regulations to meet will catalyze the market to fulfill the need.

That’s what PetroCan is doing. Level 3 DCFC stations are popping up right across the country at their gas stations. They actually beat Tesla in a cross country network completion. And it’s pay at the pump unlike the completions membership type setups. We have a bunch around us. We tried them once just to see how smooth it went. Worked well.

 

[Viajeros]

Apples & oranges, I think. ICE vehicles are intended to be quickly refueled at ubiquitous remote locations, whereas one of the highly touted advantages of an EV is charging at home overnight, where & when power is presumably abundant and cheap. Not the only way to recharge, of course, but 1 in 8 Americans lives in an apartment and mostly won't be able to take advantage of home charging. EV fueling will not be so convenient for them - they will need a planned stop on the way home, just as they do with their ICE vehicles (but it takes longer to get a fill-up).

Some private home owners won't ever have fast charging at home either, for reasons of cost or practical access to a power outlet. We don't think much about it, but in some areas it's still common to park in the street in front of your house, or to have a tiny spot away from the house. Not everybody lives in suburbia with nice driveways and attached garages.

I foresee EV pavilions with convenience stores, wifi, and customer lounges with maybe some form of entertainment. EV drivers with 30-40 minutes to kill are potential customers for beverages, snacks, to-go foods, light groceries, videos, etc. Fuel-provider companies like Racetrack & WaWa have figured out how to capitalize on that, and the opportunity with EVs seems even greater.

In BC we are seeing some older apartment buildings retrofitted with chargers as well as new ones. On our daily dog walk we walk through a new 3 building complex. They have a half dozen chargers and room for a lot more as the need comes. They get used although there doesn’t seem to be a lot of EV’s in the building. The parking lot has a ton of pretty half tons though. Maybe they’ll buy the new lightning. . Lol.

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

There is going to be a profusion of EV offerings in this decade, domestic and foreign. I agree that the feeding of these things will be the challenge going forward. Just as the tesla charging network can tell you where the nearest charge station is, no doubt at some point there will be an "app for that" and you will find charging stations through numerous suppliers and networks. Whether there will be any open slots and how long you'll have to wait your turn will be another story. Folks that live in homes have it a bit easier but I can see how EV power would be metered and rationed separately. Even today there are programs where the utility can shut down A/C during peak demand, not a stretch to have your EV power moderated the same way. Employers may offer charge spots as a perk, apartments would charge an additional premium for parking with charging, businesses will use them as enticement. Surely the novelty of EV's will wear off once the revenue generation schemes kick in, and real costs to own and operate them settle out.

From a marketing perspective I guess these initial offerings of everything to excess makes sense to overcome market sensitivity to power and range. Eventually I would think that more practical EV's would begin to appear, not everyone wants sub 10 second quarter mile times and 500HP. When you go with a more pedestrian/practical vehicle not only does the vehicle cost go down but operating it is easier. Not necessarily econoboxes but "midsize" general transportation and utility for the masses. I drove an EV pickup for 10 years, long before there were any charging stations. At home I charged it from a dryer outlet and at work I plugged into a 20A 120V socket. Those supplied all the power I needed for the modest battery it had. It wasn't going to win any races but it did all the things a light truck does. It might be a while before OEM's begin to offer vehicles to the masses like that, but that's what I'm holding out for. Just like with the gas crunch in the 70's that brought about the popularity of japanese economy cars, I think once the grid gets stressed and charging electron-thirsty performance EV's becomes problematic or expensive, more practical EV's will appear.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

 

[Larry N.]

Food for thought: All those electric vehicles pose a problem for building roads

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

It's probably true that current EV owners are enjoying a "free lunch", or at least a bargain lunch. Electric fueling is sometimes free and always low-priced, whether as an incentive for EVs or an employee perk. That will change as subsidies disappear and electric fueling goes strictly commercial. I can foresee premium rates for supercharging vs "regular" slower or Level 2 charging. Maybe even discounts for off-peak charging when charging slots are more available. The economics of a fueling station will be quite different when the average fill-up time at the "pump" is 30-50 minutes instead of 5. It's difficult to predict how people's fueling habits will change to adapt to the time (and maybe price) difference.

 

[Viajeros]

Food for thought: All those electric vehicles pose a problem for building roads

I’ll respectfully disagree. That’s just indicative of a policy change. Some states, provinces, countries have already dealt with this by imposing a registration fee that replaces the equivalent toad tax. Most EVers I have talked to support this. Makes for good headlines though.

 

[Viajeros]

It's probably true that current EV owners are enjoying a "free lunch", or at least a bargain lunch. Electric fueling is sometimes free and always low-priced, whether as an incentive for EVs or an employee perk. That will change as subsidies disappear and electric fueling goes strictly commercial. I can foresee premium rates for supercharging vs "regular" slower or Level 2 charging. Maybe even discounts for off-peak charging when charging slots are more available. The economics of a fueling station will be quite different when the average fill-up time at the "pump" is 30-50 minutes instead of 5. It's difficult to predict how people's fueling habits will change to adapt to the time (and maybe price) difference.

Thst already happens Gary. Supercharging is typically three times as much as charging at home. Public DCFC is even more.
Free charging Is usually a loss leader type affair at a restaurant or mall. Come eat here or shop here and charge for free. But charge rates are slow and it typically costs the business 60 cents. Compare that to a restaurant coupon for 5 dollars off an entree. It’s cheaper for the business owner to offer free charging.

 

[PJ Stough]

I was driving yesterday and some Yahoo idiot in a Mustang comes screaming past me sounding like he had no mufflers. What a horrible racket it made. My first thought was that I wish we were at the point where there were no more ICEs drowning out every thing including my radio.

Yes, those new ICE Mustangs are loud, and the owners like to show you! I cant say I really mind because I remember back in the last century I had a loud car or two.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Thst already happens Gary. Supercharging isn’t typically three times as much as charging at home. Public DCFC is even more.

I wasn't comparing commercial vs home charging costs. I was suggesting multiple charging lanes at commercial fueling stations, where you can select slow "regular", somewhat faster "mid-grade", or ultra quick "super-charging" at a premium price. Some stations already offer a choice of level 2 and Supercharge, but the price premium is based mostly on the higher kilowatt rate. We may begin to see a price premium based more on the shorter elapsed time than the kilowatt-hrs delivered. Electricity costs from the grid are about the same whether it is delivered slow or fast, but there is extra value in getting the customer thru the recharging lanes quickly. If you are late for an important date or meeting, you might be willing to pay 2x or 3x just to get thru the charging station more quickly.


Another possible cultural change in refueling comes with with the home vs commercial decision. Low or no extra cost home charging at 20A/120v is viable for routine travel in an EV. You can get 30-40 miles of range overnight in the driveway and that's sufficient for typical daily use. But once in awhile you need more range, e.g. the trip to gramma's house, so you pop over to the neighborhood supercharger for 30 minutes the night before, then finish off at home overnight. Two stage charging, as it were. No need to buy an expensive fast-charger for home if you can access a supercharger when needed. However, it has to be both reliable and available. Maybe even a reservation system o assure you can get your slot?

These are just conjecture on my part, of course, but I think we are going to experience a sea-change in how owners view refueling.

 

[Larry N.]

I’ll respectfully disagree. That’s just indicative of a policy change. Some states, provinces, countries have already dealt with this by imposing a registration fee that replaces the equivalent toad tax. Most EVers I have talked to support this. Makes for good headlines though.

It's a bit more than policy. With deteriorating roads in many areas, and many states NOT having dealt with the change (nor has the fed so far), it's something to consider since, indeed, road maintenance depends on road taxes in some form.

And given that travel out of state doesn't put anything in the "foreign state" coffers, so it's something people need to be aware of. Something will change, whether it's taxes or road conditions or...

 

[IBTripping]

Food for thought: All those electric vehicles pose a problem for building roads

The author makes an important public policy point. The fuel tax is an easy to collect funds system that pays for road construction and maintenance. To continue the public policy that those who drive on the roads pay for them, policy makers must find a mechanism to do that. One approach is to charge EVs a higher property tax than ICE vehicles and dedicate the increase to pay for roads. However, it's not fair because the lower annual mileage EVs pay the same road tax as high annual mileage EVs. The top major policy proposal so far is to charge by the number of miles driven per year. In fact the Federal Highway Administration announced it would fund eight state- and regional-level road-user-fee pilot programs. This proposal is much more complicated than collecting fees/taxes at the gas pump.

 

[Skookum]

Yes, those new ICE Mustangs are loud, and the owners like to show you! I cant say I really mind because I remember back in the last century I had a loud car or two.

Problem is, a lot of the Mustangs on the road today have half the cylinders they used to. Every time I hear fast and furious buzzing noises and turn around to see a Mustang, my heart dies a little. The 4 cyls are fast enough, but it's just not the same!!

That said, the Lamborghini Countach on the poster on every kid's wall in the 1980's did 0-60 in 4.7 Seconds.

The new electric F150 Lightning should best that....under $50k, brand new.

I'm in.

 

[Viajeros]

Problem is, a lot of the Mustangs on the road today have half the cylinders they used to. Every time I hear fast and furious buzzing noises and turn around to see a Mustang, my heart dies a little. The 4 cyls are fast enough, but it's just not the same!!

That said, the Lamborghini Countach on the poster on every kid's wall in the 1980's did 0-60 in 4.7 Seconds.

The new electric F150 Lightning should best that....under $50k, brand new.

I'm in.

yep. My wife’s 4 door EV sedan does it in about 3.7. And it’s not even expensive. . The bar has been set. Any car or truck over 5 seconds now is slooooooooowwwwwe. .

 

[SeilerBird]

OP - The thread should be LIghtning not Lighting.

 

[John From Detroit]

We have several states passing "No Internal Combustion" after #### laws now. I'm not sure how this is going tow work
Hot to collect road tax...
One tax the chargers
Two, GPS tracking tax the miles driven by car (Some states have purposed do not know the status of the laws)
Three.. Move it to the general fund and increase other taxes.

Most likely to be used option: All of the above.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

The road use tax thing is a political nightmare, mired in "fairness" issues that are largely irrelevant but nonetheless highly controversial. We all benefit from the streets & highways infrastructure, even if we don't own a vehicle. Somewhere around 70% of all goods in the USA move by truck and even those who stay at home get deliveries by USPS, Fedex and UPS. Politically, though, there is going to have to be some kind of EV road-use tax, so the issue is how to collect it. No simple answer to that, because there is nothing that readily tracks to EV "fueling" or mileage or other road use parameter.

 

[IBTripping]

OP - The thread should be LIghtning not Lighting.

I appreciate being ticketed by the grammar and spelling police. However, don't let me catch you using "your" for "you're."

 

[Viajeros]

I appreciate being ticketed by the grammar and spelling police. However, don't let me catch you using "your" for "you're."

Cmon. You’re not serious. Don’t make me come overs their. .

 

[IBTripping]

We have several states passing "No Internal Combustion" after #### laws now. I'm not sure how this is going tow work
Hot to collect road tax...
One tax the chargers
Two, GPS tracking tax the miles driven by car (Some states have purposed do not know the status of the laws)
Three.. Move it to the general fund and increase other taxes.

Most likely to be used option: All of the above.

I don't have a problem with road use taxes/fees. But, I would strongly object to GPS monitoring because it would inevitably be abused regardless of any privacy laws. However, an annual odometer check would be acceptable to me. It would be easy to add to my state's annual safety inspection law.

 

[SeilerBird]

I appreciate being ticketed by the grammar and spelling police. However, don't let me catch you using "your" for "you're."

The reason I mention it is because if someone is searching for info on the lightning it won't show up in the results.