Vandals

[Chef Duane]

I have to agree with Tony that minimizing an illegal act can easily promote escalation.

Sage advice especially in these "defund the police" crazy times.

 

[Onyrlef]

Sage advice especially in these "defund the police" crazy times.

The problem with defund the police is then you just get worse policing. Compare the very well funded Plano, Tx. Police Dept. with the small town rural police depts. whose primary revenue source is traffic stops. No contest, none.

 

[Isaac-1]

Onyrlef, I have a cousin that was part of the Plano police force, he was on the SWAT entry team until he took medical retirement about a dozen years ago. He only had to fire his gun once in the line of duty that was back in his first or second year on the job while clearing an apartment after a break in and the bad guy was hiding in a closet.

 

[DutchmenSport]

No matter what side of the coin you take, the ONE thing you cannot deny is the fact that those people did not own those rocks, nor the ground on which those rocks were sitting. They were NOT the owners. The property, the rocks were NOT in their name, or on THEIR own property deed. Their actions, absolutely show on video, is the fact that they are destroying someone else's property. They are vandals, criminals, and should pay the price of being a vandal and a criminal for their actions.

The property was NOT theirs to destroy. They were WRONG in what they did. There is NO justifiable reason for their behavior or any benefit for anyone in what they did.

I hope authorities figure out who they are and prosecute them harshly. Anyone who disagrees with my thoughts on this, then ... next time, I hope they tear the roof off YOUR camper! After all, it's not theirs and who will care about YOUR camper, except YOU.

 

[Chef Duane]

The problem with defund the police is then you just get worse policing. Compare the very well funded Plano, Tx. Police Dept. with the small town rural police depts. whose primary revenue source is traffic stops. No contest, none.

Yes, we're pretty lucky here in Plano to have a well trained, well funded, and well disciplined police force. Got no complaints with Ed Drain.

 

[Chef Duane]

No matter what side of the coin you take, the ONE thing you cannot deny is the fact that those people did not own those rocks, nor the ground on which those rocks were sitting. They were NOT the owners. The property, the rocks were NOT in their name, or on THEIR own property deed. Their actions, absolutely show on video, is the fact that they are destroying someone else's property. They are vandals, criminals, and should pay the price of being a vandal and a criminal for their actions.

The property was NOT theirs to destroy. They were WRONG in what they did. There is NO justifiable reason for their behavior or any benefit for anyone in what they did.

I hope authorities figure out who they are and prosecute them harshly. Anyone who disagrees with my thoughts on this, then ... next time, I hope they tear the roof off YOUR camper! After all, it's not theirs and who will care about YOUR camper, except YOU.

Lake Mead National Recreation Area is funded by tax dollars so technically and very tangentially it's all our property. But I agree, still doesn't give anyone permit to destroy public land.

 

[Ray-IN]

And not just slap on the wrist. Since it was on federal land, it should be considered a felony.

Getting a ticket on federal lands is resolved in a federal court.
I wonder what the folks minimizing this would say had those 2 guys did that in Lava Beds NM at Tulake CA.
An aside; all caves stalactites and stalagmites are protected by federal law for this very reason.

 

[Onyrlef]

Onyrlef, I have a cousin that was part of the Plano police force, he was on the SWAT entry team until he took medical retirement about a dozen years ago. He only had to fire his gun once in the line of duty that was back in his first or second year on the job while clearing an apartment after a break in and the bad guy was hiding in a closet.

Yes, we're very fortunate here, an extremely professional police force with no cowboys. The recruiting process for the PPD is rigorous and highly selective. You get what you pay for.

 

[Onyrlef]

Getting a ticket on federal lands is resolved in a federal court.
I wonder what the folks minimizing this would say had those 2 guys did that in Lava Beds NM at Tulake CA.
An aside; all caves stalactites and stalagmites are protected by federal law for this very reason.

The syndrome was described by the late Sen. Patrick Moynihan of NY in his excellent essay/book "Defining Deviancy Down".
I spend a lot of time out biking and kayaking the trails and rivers and lakes in N. Texas and Oklahoma. Where 50 years ago a sense of the collective responsibility kept the public areas mostly clean, it's not unusual now for a hiker to just throw their empty plastic water bottle down where they finished it off. The banks of the river running through the Ft. Worth Nature Preserve and of the Trinity River here, are littered with trash left by bank fisherman and visitors whose philosophy is "not my problem". I think it's an example of the " Broken Windows Theory", they see it's a dumping ground, so figure "I might as well throw my trash down as well, it's not so bad taking a walk through a dump site after all".

 

[Isaac-1]

My concern is the leave only footprints philosophy can be reinterpreted as don't even leave footprints by what some my see as a radical few, but which can quickly evolve into a mainstream view with such social media attention. While I don't know that is the case here, I think it is a slippery slope, and that this particular incident is being WAY over blown given the lack of any particular cultural significance of the rocks in question, beyond the happenstance of the designation of the land they were on.

 

[NY_Dutch]

My concern is the leave only footprints philosophy can be reinterpreted as don't even leave footprints by what some my see as a radical few, but which can quickly evolve into a mainstream view with such social media attention. While I don't know that is the case here, I think it is a slippery slope, and that this particular incident is being WAY over blown given the lack of any particular cultural significance of the rocks in question, beyond the happenstance of the designation of the land they were on.

No "happenstance", those lands were designated for protection because of their historic significance and beauty. Imagine if every visitor decided to damage some small area when they visited. Or a visitor brought along a few sticks of dynamite. It's just rocks after all. Eventually, what would be left for those that follow us to enjoy...

 

[Onyrlef]

My concern is the leave only footprints philosophy can be reinterpreted as don't even leave footprints by what some my see as a radical few, but which can quickly evolve into a mainstream view with such social media attention. While I don't know that is the case here, I think it is a slippery slope, and that this particular incident is being WAY over blown given the lack of any particular cultural significance of the rocks in question, beyond the happenstance of the designation of the land they were on.

The happenstance of the land they're on is it's not yours to do with as you please. If you want to change something, try mowing your grass.

 

[UTTransplant]

One person doing something like this is not an issue in the big picture of things. However one person doing it and making/publicizing a video of it is encouragement for others. At what point is it not ok? At what point is the natural beauty of a place destroyed? The second person? The fiftieth? Have t we all seen the results where “campers” destroyed site and the sites are now off-limits? Justifying that this type of destruction is “not a big deal is ignoring that it can become a big deal quite quickly. I hope they find the (personally censored) and give them huge fines plus public ally embarrassing the (personally censored) out of them. Let others know just what hope of person they are.

 

[Tulecreeper]

A park ranger explained to me that littering apple cores, banana peels (anything biodegradable) is not less an infraction because it attracts wildlife and increases unnecessary roadkill. (As he was writing my ticket.) Until then, I thought as Isaac expressed that biodegradable was kind of not really litter.

I have to agree with Tony that minimizing an illegal act can easily promote escalation.

Well, as retired Fish & Wildlife I can attest that I never considered a single apple core or banana peel as "littering", unless it was tossed down in the middle of a parking lot where it can get stepped on and make a mess. If someone is hiking a trail and stops for lunch, then tosses their left over apple into the bushes it's no harm no foul to me.

 

[Onyrlef]

A group of us got tickets last fall for being in a federal permit only hunting area, to the tune of $240.00 per person ( there were 20 or so in the group). I figure it was $120.00 for being there without a permit, even though we weren’t hunting and a $120.00 fee for being idiots. FYI, “Area Closed for Permit Hunt” means you can’t go in there without a permit.

 

[jymbee]

Justifying that this type of destruction is “not a big deal is ignoring that it can become a big deal quite quickly.

I agree completely. I'd just add that a number of posts here, mine included, propose that there are degrees of "bigness" when it comes to vandalism. The nature of the offense being related to the resulting punishment.

In the larger picture, this story is a rather dramatic illustration of the power of the media when it comes to such events. "Back in the day" before everyone had a cell phone with video, you would never have heard of an incident like this. Today, the media is always scanning social media in search of such videos they know will result in many views. More views, more $$$.

 

[TonyL]

In the larger picture, this story is a rather dramatic illustration of the power of the media when it comes to such events. "Back in the day" before everyone had a cell phone with video, you would never have heard of an incident like this. Today, the media is always scanning social media in search of such videos they know will result in many views. More views, more $$$.

Good point, sad but so true.

 

[1stimerver]

I think its just plain wrong to destroy something that has probably been that way for hundreds or thousands of years. It is a demonstration of the wonders of nature. Senseless destruction should not be tolerated.

Safe travels and all the best.

 

[zulu]

Well, as retired Fish & Wildlife I can attest that I never considered a single apple core or banana peel as "littering", unless it was tossed down in the middle of a parking lot where it can get stepped on and make a mess. If someone is hiking a trail and stops for lunch, then tosses their left over apple into the bushes it's no harm no foul to me.

From my days of back pack camping, we were taught to pack it out — ALL out.

 

[Ray-IN]

BTW, whatever happened to the man who destroyed rocks in Utah a few years ago, while his family watched? Somehow he was connected with an RV company.