Your car is ratting you out,
- Thread starter Ray-IN
- Start date
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
DutchmenSport
Well-known member
Unfortunately, no one really cares until it affects them directly! Then they scream how unfair everything is.
OP
OP
Ray-IN
Well-known member
It is yet more instances where not reading the fine print in a contract can have real consequences.
My auto insurance co. offers a discount if you drive less than 12,000 mile a year. You must take a picture of your odometer with your phone and text it to them, in their app.
I pretended I don't have a cell phone. I said, then I can drive to your office and have one of your people take the picture. NO, he said, we cannot do that, then the company will have our cell phone number to track your movements.
My auto insurance co. offers a discount if you drive less than 12,000 mile a year. You must take a picture of your odometer with your phone and text it to them, in their app.
I pretended I don't have a cell phone. I said, then I can drive to your office and have one of your people take the picture. NO, he said, we cannot do that, then the company will have our cell phone number to track your movements.
Mark_K5LXP
Well-known member
I don't think it's a matter of opt in or out, the hardware is on full time and no telling what data is being phoned home. The thing reports to the dealer you need an oil change- there is no limit to what it could report or be interrogated for. From driving parameters to what the A/C temp is to the radio stations you listen to. If it were a matter of unplugging a module I would, but nowadays the lines between the ECM and "infotainment" are blurred/integrated. I predict at some point this data won't be optional - to be used for any number of regulatory, insurance or enforcement purposes. The "safe driver" programs using OBD and GPS data are just the camel's nose under the tent.
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
OP
OP
Ray-IN
Well-known member
I agree Mark. GM uses OnStar to do exactly that, plus unlock your doors if you left your keys inside.
added: When I activated OnStar, by default I agreed to the terms and conditions. We all do that when we activate a new cell phone.
added: When I activated OnStar, by default I agreed to the terms and conditions. We all do that when we activate a new cell phone.
John From Detroit
Well-known member
On Star and On Guard (Ford's answer to On-star. basically the same system) have one other feature. Two stories. Early in the on star/guard days.
A fairly new Mustang hard top was left in a high-risk parking lot keys in ignition.. It's now going down the road and the two idiots inside are talking "How stoopid are the owners of this car I mean it's like they wanted us to steal it" says one of them.. as suddenly the car stops running and the doors won't open.... Doors opened real nice for the police officer however.. And off they went to jail as another officer drove the bate car back to the high risk lot. (ON Guard on the phone with my partner)
Got a BOL (Be On Lookout what many tv shows improperly call an all points bulletin) for a new Cadillac Escalade.. Talked to my supervisor (I knew about On-star attended a sales meeting on it. the meeting was for GM sales types but I... well .. Crashed it) Sent a phone number (1-800-CHEV-USA) back to the entering agency (Easy number to remember) and 15 minutes later we recovered the Escalade.
Yup. Those systems do have an advantage. In addition to the "Rat you out" they help you keep ownership when the car goes roll about without permission.
We were all trained on a different systrem (Tele-Track) but and we all knew about Lo-Jack but I was the only one familiar with On-star and all the abilities of On-Guard (My partner having transferred back to the other side of the state where his family was)
A fairly new Mustang hard top was left in a high-risk parking lot keys in ignition.. It's now going down the road and the two idiots inside are talking "How stoopid are the owners of this car I mean it's like they wanted us to steal it" says one of them.. as suddenly the car stops running and the doors won't open.... Doors opened real nice for the police officer however.. And off they went to jail as another officer drove the bate car back to the high risk lot. (ON Guard on the phone with my partner)
Got a BOL (Be On Lookout what many tv shows improperly call an all points bulletin) for a new Cadillac Escalade.. Talked to my supervisor (I knew about On-star attended a sales meeting on it. the meeting was for GM sales types but I... well .. Crashed it) Sent a phone number (1-800-CHEV-USA) back to the entering agency (Easy number to remember) and 15 minutes later we recovered the Escalade.
Yup. Those systems do have an advantage. In addition to the "Rat you out" they help you keep ownership when the car goes roll about without permission.
We were all trained on a different systrem (Tele-Track) but and we all knew about Lo-Jack but I was the only one familiar with On-star and all the abilities of On-Guard (My partner having transferred back to the other side of the state where his family was)
whiteva
Well-known member
I had a "sit-down" discussion with the electronics in my MGB. It gave me a promise to only deliver recorded music from my choice of radio stations and never report back to big brother.
No other computers on board unless I bring my phone with me, however when the top is down I wish to enjoy the drive without distraction so the phone is at home and the dog in in the pax seat.
No other computers on board unless I bring my phone with me, however when the top is down I wish to enjoy the drive without distraction so the phone is at home and the dog in in the pax seat.
Greetings,
Don't cars have electronics in them that send to the car manufactures? I think so. The small dark plastic (antenna?) on my Kia looks suspicious to me. I'm sure the car manufactures don't sell your information
(NOT)
Don't cars have electronics in them that send to the car manufactures? I think so. The small dark plastic (antenna?) on my Kia looks suspicious to me. I'm sure the car manufactures don't sell your information
(NOT)
NY_Dutch
Well-known member
Our 13 year old toad doesn't report home to anyone. I do have an app on my phone though, that tracks my driving (or riding, it can't tell the difference) and reports things like unsafe stops, speeding, etc., to my insurance company. So far, the app has gotten me an 11% discount on my premiums. That's particularly gratifying since just over 100 miles of one trip were on a "leaf peeping" train trip through the Adirondacks last fall.
Skookum
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2018
- Posts
- 3,667
The article posted is clickbait, sensationalist trash...It really doesn't explain the how or why of the problem and what led to a couple of recent class-action lawsuits. The article is designed to stun, and make the reader angry without understanding the issue. Understand first, then let the anger fly.
In short, the issue centers around consent, and personally identifiable information. Three specific issues with consent:
One is data collection in the absence of an active, paid subscription to OnStar or similar service. A lot of folks assumed without a subscription, the telematics system was not reporting data about their car. That's not necessarily the case...
Two, the vehicle is enrolled, not the driver. When you sell a used vehicle and consent* was given to collect data at some point, apparently that enrollment follows the car and a new owner may not even be aware. Similarly if a family shares a car and dad consents to data collection, but mom does not, the car doesn't care. It's going to collect data until the car itself is un-enrolled, and maybe not even then..
Three...OnStar has a specific, named data collection program called Smart Driver. Many folks say they never consciously opted in, but found themselves enrolled. Even worse, some report after un-enrolling and opting out of the program, they found themselves re-enrolled after things like app updates or subscription changes for the telematics program. There have been reports of dealer sales people opting people in without their knowledge/consent because of kickback programs and other ugly practices.
Here's the issue with PII: Some drivers discovered their insurance premiums skyrocketed or policies were cancelled as a result of insurance companies buying data from a 3rd party analytics and data warehousing firms, like Lexis-Nexis. OnStar is supposedly selling depersonalized data. It is not believed they are specifically saying "John Smith accelerated hard and exceeded 80mph five times this week". They are likely reporting a VIN with driving data.
The connection to a person may be happening on the insurance company's side. They see in the data file that VIN 1G1FP123 was recorded doing in excess of 80mph five times this week with a bunch of hard acceleration. The insurance company has access to State-owned vehicle registration systems and has additional data via its policy holders to be able to link the fact that VIN 1G1FP123 belongs to John Smith who insures his car with us. It's not terribly different from things they already do like buy data about driving records and credit reports. This data Lexis is selling is a bit more useful and timely in helping them appropriately assess certain types of risk.
Blah Blah...OnStar was not only hit with lawsuits recently, but the backlash and negative PR was so bad recently that GM reportedly stopped selling data to Lexis.
It's not just OnStar. If your vehicle has a telematics system, it may be reporting data whether you want it to or not, and whether you think you consented to that, or not.
But it's important to understand the differences and means of reporting data. If a car has an On Board Diagnostics system, it may report information to the telematics system for use by the manufacturer. There are also specific types of reporting/data collection programs like OnStar Smart Driver which allow the vehicle to share additional data. Including location, at all times.
It's not just the car. If you use the OnStar or MyChevrolet, MyGMC, MyBuick or other apps from the manufacturer, on your cell phone, they also collect certain types of data about usage and driving and all sorts of things.
If you have your insurance company's app installed on your phone...they may be collecting certain types of data while you are driving.
Your phone, no matter what apps you have installed, is collecting and transmitting all sorts of data while you are driving (and potentially some data about your driving!).
Insurance companies now even have plug-in devices that you plug into the car's OBD port so they can monitor your driving habits.
There is plenty of recent, great, highly investigative and informative journalism on this topic through a variety of sources. I suggest anyone who is bothered by the mention of any of this, or wants to know more should go hit the papers, books, and some parts of the internet.
It goes without saying, if you own a vehicle with a telematics system, now is high time to understand exactly what you've consented to, your enrollment status, and if you are at all concerned, how to "opt out".
In short, the issue centers around consent, and personally identifiable information. Three specific issues with consent:
One is data collection in the absence of an active, paid subscription to OnStar or similar service. A lot of folks assumed without a subscription, the telematics system was not reporting data about their car. That's not necessarily the case...
Two, the vehicle is enrolled, not the driver. When you sell a used vehicle and consent* was given to collect data at some point, apparently that enrollment follows the car and a new owner may not even be aware. Similarly if a family shares a car and dad consents to data collection, but mom does not, the car doesn't care. It's going to collect data until the car itself is un-enrolled, and maybe not even then..
Three...OnStar has a specific, named data collection program called Smart Driver. Many folks say they never consciously opted in, but found themselves enrolled. Even worse, some report after un-enrolling and opting out of the program, they found themselves re-enrolled after things like app updates or subscription changes for the telematics program. There have been reports of dealer sales people opting people in without their knowledge/consent because of kickback programs and other ugly practices.
Here's the issue with PII: Some drivers discovered their insurance premiums skyrocketed or policies were cancelled as a result of insurance companies buying data from a 3rd party analytics and data warehousing firms, like Lexis-Nexis. OnStar is supposedly selling depersonalized data. It is not believed they are specifically saying "John Smith accelerated hard and exceeded 80mph five times this week". They are likely reporting a VIN with driving data.
The connection to a person may be happening on the insurance company's side. They see in the data file that VIN 1G1FP123 was recorded doing in excess of 80mph five times this week with a bunch of hard acceleration. The insurance company has access to State-owned vehicle registration systems and has additional data via its policy holders to be able to link the fact that VIN 1G1FP123 belongs to John Smith who insures his car with us. It's not terribly different from things they already do like buy data about driving records and credit reports. This data Lexis is selling is a bit more useful and timely in helping them appropriately assess certain types of risk.
Blah Blah...OnStar was not only hit with lawsuits recently, but the backlash and negative PR was so bad recently that GM reportedly stopped selling data to Lexis.
It's not just OnStar. If your vehicle has a telematics system, it may be reporting data whether you want it to or not, and whether you think you consented to that, or not.
But it's important to understand the differences and means of reporting data. If a car has an On Board Diagnostics system, it may report information to the telematics system for use by the manufacturer. There are also specific types of reporting/data collection programs like OnStar Smart Driver which allow the vehicle to share additional data. Including location, at all times.
It's not just the car. If you use the OnStar or MyChevrolet, MyGMC, MyBuick or other apps from the manufacturer, on your cell phone, they also collect certain types of data about usage and driving and all sorts of things.
If you have your insurance company's app installed on your phone...they may be collecting certain types of data while you are driving.
Your phone, no matter what apps you have installed, is collecting and transmitting all sorts of data while you are driving (and potentially some data about your driving!).
Insurance companies now even have plug-in devices that you plug into the car's OBD port so they can monitor your driving habits.
There is plenty of recent, great, highly investigative and informative journalism on this topic through a variety of sources. I suggest anyone who is bothered by the mention of any of this, or wants to know more should go hit the papers, books, and some parts of the internet.
It goes without saying, if you own a vehicle with a telematics system, now is high time to understand exactly what you've consented to, your enrollment status, and if you are at all concerned, how to "opt out".
Not that I care about this one but Tesla has the 5 strike system that gives you a timeout for a week if you are using FSD (supervised) incorrectly. Some of the things that will get you a strike are
1. Grabbing your phone while driving.
2. Not watching the road.
3. Not keeping your hands on the wheel.
And other things.
It’s never happened to me but I know a bunch of folks who get dinged regularly. We keep our eyes on the road and at least one hand on the wheel and we leave our phones in the charger. No issues. Probably 99 percent of our driving we are on FSD nowadays. It rarely needs interventions anymore and usually only for courtesy reasons or if there is a flag man or cop giving hand signals. It doesn’t recognize hand signals…yet.
1. Grabbing your phone while driving.
2. Not watching the road.
3. Not keeping your hands on the wheel.
And other things.
It’s never happened to me but I know a bunch of folks who get dinged regularly. We keep our eyes on the road and at least one hand on the wheel and we leave our phones in the charger. No issues. Probably 99 percent of our driving we are on FSD nowadays. It rarely needs interventions anymore and usually only for courtesy reasons or if there is a flag man or cop giving hand signals. It doesn’t recognize hand signals…yet.
Skookum
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2018
- Posts
- 3,667
I hadn't really tried the driving assist/self-drive capabilities of our iX because I'm just not that interested in the tech. Yesterday I gave it a fair shake. It's not full self-driving, but the car will keep itself in its lane, accelerate, brake, and steer, on its own, as well as signal and change lanes when it needs to. It requires a hand be kept on the wheel, else lights and warnings flashing. But you can't tell it to take you to a destination and expect it to drive itself.
It brakes harder and follows other vehicles more closely than I would. It's also more impatient behind slow traffic than I would be.
.No doubt that the car is collecting information about how it's driven and sending it to BMW. I'm not sure driving assist in this case would help our insurance rates. The difference is with FSD and driving assist programs is the car is probably less likely to get into an accident, despite the way it drives.
DonTom
Well-known member
Are you sure there are no settings for that?
In my Bolt, when I used the adaptive cruise control, I can easily set it for how close I want the car to follow.
I am not sure how it works in my Tesla. I use the cruise control sometimes and I assume it will not get too close to the car in front, but the default is too close for me. I never checked to see if there is an adjustment. Works better in the Bolt.
I tried the self-driving software for the month Tesla had a free trial. I would rather drive my own car, especially when Tesla now forces us to leave our hands on the steering wheel which defeats any useful purpose of it, IMO. I wouldn't use it even if were for free. But I am not knocking it, some people find it to be a big advantage on longer trips. But then it is RV time for me.
I would rather just drive my own cars.
-Don- Reno, NV
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
It seems that much of the automatic reporting is statistical and not even identified to the VIN level, let alone the driver. Used to make general conclusions about how vehicles are used/driven. But as Skookum explains, some of it has been reported by VIN and a VIN is easily tied to an owner, in an insurer's database or state DMV records. And since it's the vehicle that is insured regardless of who is driving, the VIN level is all an insurer really cares about.
Skookum
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2018
- Posts
- 3,667
There may be, but I didn't get that far into the configuration. I know there are settings for following distance for adaptive cruise control. That's another feature I don't really use, though.
Larry N.
Well-known member
The VORAD (radar sensor) with cruise control I had on my 2007 Beaver let you set following distance in seconds- liked it a lot on the open road.
Our old tesla had a radar and you could set the distance when on autopilot.
But the radar has gone away and replaced with a straight vision system and one can no longer set the distance. Or at least that’s the case on full self drive (supervised). Not sure about autopilot which we almost never use anymore (and probably never will again)
DeckArtist
Well-known member
Yessir, the real fun is when the social credit score and AI team up. I'm paying off the four wheeler first!!
dave54
Well-known member
Wife and I were having a disagreement while driving. Next thing I know my phone beeped with an ad for teleflorists.
