Is ICE the problem??

[DonTom]

I think my EV is pretty green.

Looks red to me!

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

But it’s focus is on tires.

Okay. So here I will as well.

I now see the tire BS was just some EV hater's claim, not proven at all. It even had me fooled for a while, so I decided to check the facts the best I could.

"While the study has made headlines, it has also been met with some skepticism.

As The Guardian pointed out recently, the tests "have not been peer-reviewed by scientists, and the industry disputes the findings."

". Electric cars are – for now – heavier still than equivalents. But even so, tyre pollution appears roughly comparable between petrol, diesel and electric cars. The other benefits of switching to electric cars – most notably lower carbon pollution – are huge."

See here and here for where I got the above quotes.

So until proven otherwise, it's no more than some EV hater's guesswork. Perhaps backed by oil companies(I can guess too!).

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

 

[DonTom]

Knew it would cause dissent and DonTom’s brake comment would come in. LOL

And I am glad they mentioned the brakes as that is what made me to dig deeper into the tire story.

When I hear such obvious nonsense, then I want to doublecheck everything said. BTW, I have seen even stupider claims about EV brakes such as "EVs are very heavy so the brake pads will not last long." Lines like that are good indications the person talking about EVs never even drove one for a test drive.

BTW, when the world goes all EV, it would hot surprise me a bit if cars no longer have brakes at all. All brakes do is waste good energy to stop a (often a very heavy) vehicle.

I really think my Chevy Bolt has it perfect. I watch the KW charge increase to the battery as I press the brake pedal harder. It shows it on the main screen. I doubt if the brake pads ever even touched the disks since I have owned it. I assume it has brakes only because it is law for now.

I can stop just as well from the regen control on the steering wheel that has no connection to the brakes. And that is what I normally use to stop the car, after I once got used to using it instead of the brake pedal.

I miss it when I drive my Tesla. But the Tesla stops from deceleration regen anyway. Tesla has no added regen to the brake pedal. The Bolt has both brake pedal regen and much lighter deceleration regen but I can increase it as much as I want while driving from the steering wheel regen level. I prefer the Bolt regen method over the Tesla's by far. But I will not claim everybody will. Just my preference.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[Skookum]

Don, you make it sound complicated. We have ours set to max regen and it stays there, and we drive the car in one-pedal mode. If more braking is needed, apply the brake. I've used the brakes maybe once or twice where I needed to stop hard, but that's it. Never needed/wanted to mess with the settings. It drives like a 516hp go-cart. The only two things I pay attention to on the screen are my speed and SOC/estimated range.

The environmental problem with tires is ongoing. A study released from Yale (Sept 2023) is particularly damning regarding the impact that "tires" have on the environment. Specifically, particulates and chemicals that leach into freshwater streams and ground water. The headline that the "haters" are glomming on to is that "EV's produce 20% more tire pollution than ICV's because they're heavier and have more torque".

That's a pretty crappy headline because it completely ignores how vehicles are driven, and other, more meaningful comparisons than singling out the 1% of vehicles on American roads. I'd be interested to know how much more tire pollution is generated by a 5,000lb gasoline SUV compared to a 2,900lb compact sedan. Or a 5,400lb full-size pickup compared to a 3,400lb midsize crossover. Or, 35-37" tires on an "overlanding" pickup/Jeep/SUV compared to fleet average of US vehicles. Way, way more common on US roads than an EV. But EV's contribution is important to know as well, no disagreement. Just, maybe, not front and center given the magnitude of the problem and the most common modes of transportation using rubber tires.

One step farther: The article ignores the overall net impact of EV's pollution profile. Ok, 20% more tire pollution as an average. But they emit zero tailpipe emissions over the vehicle's lifetime, and reduce the need for transported fuel. Inquiring minds want to know what the total lifetime impact is AND how that influences the environment where we think and know it's needed. 20% more tire pollution for an EV becomes a lot less relevant if 90% of overall tire pollution is mitigated by better stormwater management and elimination/substitution of the harmful chemical compounds discussed, AND 100% reduction of tailpipe emissions which contributes to significantly lower environmental impact than a car which does produce tailpipe emissions. It doesn't do much good to make a gas car 1,000lbs lighter so it produces less tire pollution but still massively influences climate change and air quality, which influences population health in cities (where most people live).

And that's a little, mostly, why, I'm GTFO when folks are like "EV's are bad because, tires!". We're beyond the version containing the simple words and primary colors.

Here's a link to the article:

Road Hazard: Evidence Mounts on Toxic Pollution from Tires

Researchers are only beginning to uncover the toxic cocktail of chemicals, microplastics, and heavy metals hidden in car and truck tires. But experts say these tire emissions are a significant source of air and water pollution and may be affecting humans as well as wildlife.

e360.yale.edu

I'm a car guy and I mitigate my environmental impact where I can, but it generally isn't with cars. My cars do, however, conform to the emissions standards in effect at the time of manufacture. Never made any sense to me to cut off a cat converter on a car that makes 160hp, or any amount of power, for that matter. It wasn't a fast car before doing that, and it won't be a fast car, after. Deleting a diesel, same thing. So, what, you can race with another idiot, all 500lb-ft of torque, on financed tires? Cool, bro.

The part that keeps me up at night: America was first with the mass-produced automobile and automobile culture. We are well beyond the golden age of the automobile even though some more senior members here actually lived it. We are a global economy, a global brain trust. China has risen to un-ignorable manufacturing prowess and intellectual capital. We cannot afford to lose this race to a more modern means of personal transportation, we just can't. What we have today is an anomaly given past decades: We have American companies producing American-made EV's. The materials are coming from America, the labor is coming from America, and the money is staying in America. And people hiss at them like they'd prefer the status quo of the global oil economy which is red-handedly responsible for getting us into this position in the first place. EV's put us back on the map for engineering manufacturing and so many other things. Races we can't afford to lose like space exploration, healthcare, AI, aviation, and intelligence.

Behind my enthusiasm for EV's and liberal social views exists a 100% pro-American, America-first, BE-first ideology, along with all of our allies and friends who support actual freedom and democratic process. ICV's aren't going away at the stroke of a pen no matter which politician says so, but even more dangerous are politicians who want to weaken an effort to modernize transportation in arguably excellent ways. Put the politics aside. There are two dominant political parties which many think equates to only "two sides" but this is a multi-dimensional concept which deserves (demands) more than basic tribalism.

 

[ziplock]

I am at the point that I can't tell an AI comment from an original thought these days.

I just read a reply almost word for word just like the reply from @Skookum somewhere else not more than a month ago.

Drumming my fingers trying to remember where I read that.

 

[Skookum]

I am at the point that I can't tell an AI comment from an original thought these days.

I just read a reply almost word for word just like the reply from @Skookum somewhere else not more than a month ago.

Drumming my fingers trying to remember where I read that.

It's an original reply...I'm sitting here drinking my 2nd cup of coffee as the sun comes up here in the Seattle area.

It's not totally new thought, though, there are plenty of us who see EV's in this way.

 

[ziplock]

yeah I knew you would have that reply, hahahha

But I tell ya, I read that somewhere.. I think It might have been in a flyer I got in the mail.............

 

[ziplock]

Waving at ya.

 

[Skookum]

Waving at ya.

Skookum 2024! Question is, who would I choose to be my running mate? Zippy, you up for it? lol

(People can take solace in the actual fact that I don't run for political offices, never will!)

 

[Oldgator73]

Do folks dislike EV’s because they have the misguided impression that our government will someday force them to purchase one? Do you really think EV’s are being “shoved down your throats”? I have only ever owned and driven ICE vehicles. I have only ridden in an EV once. But I can see the attraction to them. We own a hybrid. A Toyota Prius. Nice car. Seems well built. Gets good gas mileage. Comfortable. What more could we ask for? We don’t purchase our transportation as a status symbol.

 

[ziplock]

t I don't run for political offices,

I don't either/ too many politics.

 

[DonTom]

Don, you make it sound complicated.

Agreed, and perhaps that explains why Tesla makes it so simple. More of just a car and not nearly as fun to drive, IMO. Very simple to drive, very simple to charge regardless if at home or on the road.

But notice I did say "Just my preference."

Too simple usually means less control over the car. With ICE cars, I preferred a stick shift to an automatic, for just everyday type of driving. With EVs, I really like to control the regen as I drive.

BTW, a little more complicated which I also like is the way my Zero motorcycles do it. Use a Smartphone via Bluetooth to change the deceleration and breaking regen to anything wanted in a custom mode. Do the same to adjust max torque and much other stuff. Also, can just press a button on the bike for an economy mode to give better range or press it again to go to a Sport Mode (hold on well!) to instantly put everything at max.

BTW, one of my old friends nicked named me "Hard Way Charlie" because I didn't like things to be too simple. Many things I would rather do myself.

Just for laughs here is what I would call a good example of somebody writing about EVs who know nothing about them in photo number 8/12:

"Without access to charging stations, people would need to charge them at their homes. Not only is this inconvenient, but it increases the cost of their electric bill every month."

I laughed when I read that. I cannot think of anything more convenient than home charging. And the price is usually MUCH less (not counting the free to use charge stations all over many areas, such as around this area) than at most charge stations on the road.

ICV's aren't going away at the stroke of a pen

I think it could happen. Perhaps someday ICE vehicles will only be found in museums. I won't live long enough to see such. In fact, even EVs could be obsolete in the future. Hard to tell what the world will be like in another forty years or so. I doubt many around today expected EVs with road EV charge stations 40 years ago. Back then, we were still on OBD-1 with the ICE cars. And I remember the screaming about how OBD1 would increase the price of the new cars and all that. Was the same when OBD2 started in year 1996. A lot of screaming from many in 1995 again about how it would increase the price of the car and wasn't necessary. The auto manufacturers were the ones against it the most, of course.

BTW, the one thing I hated was when the smog checks started. In CA that was in the 1970's where Tom & I lived. We both didn't like that idea and I have many stories about how NEW cars would not pass it. Older cars were more likely to pass than the new cars back then. Different standards to meet.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

Do folks dislike EV’s because they have the misguided impression that our government will someday force them to purchase one?

I think perhaps the biggest fear is lost jobs. Think of all the jobs related to ICE cars that will go away in an all-EV world.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[Oldgator73]

I think perhaps the biggest fear is lost jobs. Think of all the jobs related to ICE cars that will go away in an all-EV world.

-Don- Reno, NV

That’s so far down the road. It’s not worth worrying about.

 

[Tulecreeper]

Never more true than with covid.
I followed the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s were the science was.

Yep, unfortunately, money corrupts everything.

I heard here in Reno if somebody died in a motorcycle accident who has covid, the official cause of death was the covid.

-Don- Reno, NV

That was happening all over from what I heard. Someone died of anything in the hospital who was also positive for covid, they attributed the death to covid.

I'm not going to look it up again, but I had looked up the stats and in the 2019/2020 flu season there were something like 22,000 deaths from the flu. Then, miraculously, in the 2020/2021 flu season there were only 750 deaths....750. I find it impossible to believe that flu deaths dropped by 95% in one year, I don't care if most people wore a mask or not. And IMO it was because they were calling everything and anything that even remotely resembled covid, covid.

 

[Onyrlef]

I think perhaps the biggest fear is lost jobs. Think of all the jobs related to ICE cars that will go away in an all-EV world.

-Don- Reno, NV

Offset by hiring in the healthcare professions to treat debilitating chronic pita syndrome.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Yep, unfortunately, money corrupts everything.

I heard here in Reno if somebody died in a motorcycle accident who has covid, the official cause of death was the covid.

-Don- Reno, NV

Probably not the "official cause of death" on the coroner's death certificate but it would have been reported to the CDC as a Covid fatality. The reporting forms only noted whether the deceased had Covid or not, but those reviewing the stats rarely made that distinction. Especially the news media and various "think tanks".

 

[Skookum]

Oh, we're litigating covid again? In an EV thread? LOL.

Surely if people have time to bicker about methodologies to count covid fatalities, surely there's time to read how the CDC actually tallies death count.

If you "heard" a car crash was counted as a Covid death because the person had Covid, but had been a poor driver their whole life and ran into a utility pole because they were texting, perhaps you "heard" wrong about how covid deaths are counted, or listened to a bad source of information, or have selective hearing.

Start by reading the basics.

How does the government count COVID-19 deaths?

Medical conditions or injuries at an individual’s time of death are not automatically official causes of death for the purpose of government statistics. That includes COVID-19.

usafacts.org

Those of us who actually knew people who died from Covid certainly remember what the pandemic was, and wasn't.

 

[DonTom]

That’s so far down the road. It’s not worth worrying about.

I disagree there. No doubt many ICE auto related jobs in CA have lost a lot of business already.

Close to 2 million less ICE cars to service, these days, in CA alone. No oil changes, no tranny repairs, not even many parts to replace, such as alternators, O2 sensors, belts, hoses, spark plugs, etc.

No smog checks.

-Don- Reno, NV